Written by Christopher Kelly
Dec. 4, 2014
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Christopher: Hello and welcome to the Nourish Balance Thrive podcast. I'm joined today by New York Times bestselling author, Michelle Tam. Michelle and her husband, Henry Fong, are the authors of Nom Nom Paleo: Food for Humans and the Webby Award winning app of the same name. Hi, Michelle. Thanks for coming on.
Michelle: Oh, it's my pleasure.
Christopher: I'm here with Julie as well. Actually, sorry. I always forget to introduce you.
Julie: That's all right. Hi.
Michelle: Hi, Julie.
Christopher: So tell me, how did you get started in all this? How did you discover the Paleo diet? What kind of experiences do you have with it? What inspired you to start a blog?
Michelle: Well, that's a tough question but I think long story short, my husband tried it first. We were both in our mid-30s; our second kid was old enough so that we could go to the gym again. But we just felt tired and run down and I had a muffin top and so we just wanted to get healthier. Henry stumbled upon Paleo I think after doing some P90x and finding Mark Sisson through P90x. He felt so great that I decided to try it too.
But it wasn't easy and without resistance on my end. When he first told me about it, it sounded like the craziest thing. I was like, "What do you mean whole grains and beans are bad for you? What do you mean you're eating saturated fats and meat again? This is crazy." We're like semi-vegetarian and we're super healthy.
Christopher: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: But he never tried to push it on me. He was like, "No, this is what I'm going to try." I tried to sabotage him by making homemade, whole grain pizza all the time but I finally just said, "You know what? I'm just going to try this and see what happens." I think all along that was his kind of way of trying to covertly convert me to Paleo because he knows he can't tell me what to do; I have to kind of decide on my own that it's a good idea.
Christopher: I think that's true of anyone. You can't tell anyone what to do.
Michelle: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Christopher: They have to make that decision for themselves.
Michelle: I think that's the problem a lot of Paleo folks have is that they feel so great initially when they go Paleo. They just want to tell all their friends and family like, "Go Paleo. Go Paleo," and you just end up sounding like a crazy person.
Julie: Yeah, yeah.
Michelle: And so I think that's why I started a blog is because I was like this crazy evangelist at first, and I just kind of continued it because it was a way for people to get free information about Paleo if they wanted it. That's why we kind of continued to do it.
Christopher: Isn't it extraordinary? If you're listening to this and you haven't been to Nom Nom Paleo, which I doubt but it's possible, you should go and do that almost now. Just pull the car over and go on and look. It's such a good-looking website. Yeah. I want you to tell me more about how you make it look so good.
Julie: Chris couldn't believe it was a Tumblr site.
Michelle: That is all Henry so people always think that Nom Nom Paleo is just me and I'm just like, you know. Before I quit working nights, it's like I was this night shift working, busy mom and here I am making this live website and I have a cookbook but it's not just me.
Henry and I are a team behind Nom Nom Paleo. In fact, I joke that we are like Milli Vanilli sitting in the front and he is doing all the stuff in the background. But all the design and all the cartoony stuff and the beautiful pictures and the graphics and layout are all Henry. Even though he's an attorney by profession, I think he's always wanted to be an artist and this is his way of kind of doing both left brain and right brain stuff.
Christopher: Yes. Extraordinary humans will be able to do this stuff. That doesn't sound like two things that go hand in hand to me.
Michelle: No, no. I think he's really happy because I think he likes doing both and so this is a way he can kind of satisfy being artistic and also being very pragmatic.
Christopher: Yeah. And I noticed the book, not only is it New York Times Bestseller but there's 600 five-star reviews on Amazon for the book now which I think is quite extraordinary. What's it been like living with that book? Do you get people coming up to you in the street and stuff yet?
Michelle: Sometimes I get people coming up to me but only – like where I live in Palo Alto, people might come up to me just because I live here, and then if I go to like a Paleo event or a CrossFit event. But, no, I mean, I think Paleo is still very fringe. It's not –
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: I can go outside and I can go shopping.
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Julie: No bodyguards yet.
Michelle: I don't ever expect that to ever happen.
Julie: Well, it shouldn't be the goal anyways.
Christopher: I think that was kind of interesting actually that one of the comments – I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this right. It's not something I've ever seen, I'll be honest. Saveur Magazine called it "The Best Special Diets Blog of 2012" and I'm thinking the tagline is "Food for Humans," right? So what kind of special diet is it?
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: Well, "special," they have different categories for their food blog awards and so we were in the special diets because I think like –
Christopher: That's funny.
Michelle: -- vegan, vegetarian, gluten-free are all lumped into special diet. But we were just excited to even be acknowledged as a viable special diet.
Julie: Yeah. It's a big deal. It's a small step for Paleo-kind.
Michelle: Yeah.
Julie: I like it. That's really interesting. I mean, did you ever imagine? Because I've always been kind of happy to see that you studied – my background is in Food Science and Nutrition as well and Agricultural Business and so when I saw that you also studied that in school and are full on, full steam ahead into the path of entering into the world of Frankenfoods, I felt a little bit relieved that I wasn't the only one that had been duped long ago into that whole world. What's it like kind of looking back on that and seeing kind of the fork in the road that you took? You didn't obviously end up on that path.
Michelle: No, and I was. I was very intense on becoming a Food Scientist. The only thing keeping me back was like all of those food companies were located in like New Jersey.
Julie: Me too.
Michelle: And I really like the Bay Area.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: And so I'm just going to have to figure something else out. But a lot – I mean, it is really interesting because when I went to Cal in the early '90s it was all about -- I think Olestra had just come out then which was this alternative fat substitute that wouldn't get absorbed. You could eat all these chips that you wanted. But then it turned out people got anal leakage so it wasn't such a good thing.
Julie: That sounds like a fair trade.
Christopher: Sounds like MCT oil.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: But everything sounded like amazing. I was like, wow, you can do so much with science. Science is amazing. You can feed all these people. But now, looking back, I'm like, you know what? Sometimes you shouldn't tinker so much with Mother Nature. A lot of people have actually said to me that, like our old college friends, "This is a total 180 from how you were in college." And I'm like, "I totally agree." It's a weird thing but people can change and it's good to evolve and learn new things. Sometimes you have to learn from your past. So I think it's just all about being flexible and be willing to adapt to change.
Julie: Yeah. I think about some of the presentations I gave while I was studying Food Science and Nutrition especially when I was in grad school because I went on to Dairy Science in grad school and it got worse.
Michelle: Sure.
Julie: Just think back to the presentations I gave and I say, "Those words came out of my mouth."
Michelle: Yeah, and I think that it's just really interesting. And then I went to pharmacy school and I worked at a hospital for 14 years. It's just amazing just how I accepted everything that I was taught at face value without really evaluating everything and figuring out if it really seemed true or not. When I was at the hospital, like, hmm, do these cardiologists look really healthy?
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: And sometimes I'd be like, I don't know, maybe it's just a product of ageing and no matter what you do, you can't stop things from happening. But now I don't necessarily feel that way.
Julie: Yeah.
Christopher: So tell us about that work. That's quite an extraordinary juxtaposition really, isn't it? And it's especially extraordinary when you look at the website. There's no way that I would look at the site and think, well, this person is doing this in their spare time, in their part time outside of doing shift work. But that's exactly what has been happening over the past few years, right? So what's that work been like?
Michelle: I just recently quit working nights in July. Up until then, I had been working nights for 12 years. I started Nom Nom Paleo in 2010 so for about four years we were doing both. I was working nights and then I was also doing Nom Nom Paleo.
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It was hard to juggle but I actually felt a lot better and had a lot more energy just going Paleo and starting CrossFit. Nights seemed a lot more manageable but eventually – and I think this year I hit a wall and I was like, you know what? This is too hard for me to balance everything. But for a long time it worked and I think that nights can work for a lot of people but you have to make sure all your ducks are in a row.
Christopher: Right. Yeah, I find this all the time that there's almost a certain number of variables that you can manipulate in somebody's life and if you're going to do something wacky like work nightshift then you need to make sure all of your other things are completely perfect which gets increasingly harder to do over time I think. It's like do you really want to be that perfect all the time? It's hard.
Michelle: Yeah. No, it totally is and that's why I said I can't do it both. But I still have my license. I am still a registered pharmacist. I may pick up a few shifts here and there. I haven't done that yet but I think just being someone who has been raised to have a responsible career, I have that in my back pocket if I need to.
Julie: Uh-hmm.
Christopher: And then when you are – so you're a clinical pharmacist. You're actually putting pills in people's hands. Is that right?
Michelle: Well, I mean, the nurses kind of do that too.
Christopher: Okay.
Michelle: At the hospital as the night pharmacist, it's for the hospital and it's for in-patients.
Christopher: Okay.
Michelle: Mostly at night, the busiest populations are the ICU and the OR and the Emergency Department. So we're just providing medications and antibiotics and drips and things that help keep people alive.
Christopher: Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about that. I only see the bad side of this. It would be easy for me to ignorantly assume that all these people that you see at the hospital, really what you should be giving them is the Paleo diet, right? It's what's on the other side of your coin, the blog part, but that's not necessarily true, isn't it? There's obviously a lot really of drugs that keep people alive. Can you tell me about any of those?
Michelle: Well, there're tons of drugs that help keep people alive. I mean, I think what's different being in the hospital as opposed to being out in the community and working at an outpatient pharmacy are these are really sick people. These days, you don't get admitted into the hospital unless you are really, really sick.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: For these people, they need drugs to get better and go back out. But no matter what you do, you can't change people's behaviors until they want to do it. They won't listen until they want to do it themselves. So I think that I – I actually didn't have any conflict between my job and being Paleo because these people need these drugs. I have our website available for free so that if people do decide they want to do it then they can access it for free and find out the information. But I'm not going to say, "I'm not going to give you these antibiotics."
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: Eat properly. Because I know I was like that for a long time. I thought I was eating the right way.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: And I probably would have ended up diabetic and all these things that people end up in the hospital for.
Julie: Yeah. So is the question of the hour from everyone: What are you going to do now that you've left shift work?
Michelle: Oh, yeah. People have asked me that a lot. I don't know. It's really important for me to be here for my kids and so my number one job is to make sure my family is happy and healthy and then we kind of do Nom Nom Paleo around it.
Julie: Yeah. It seems like the kids are pretty involved in it. Are they?
Michelle: They're kind of. They're getting to the age where they're getting kind of embarrassed by a lot of it and so if they are I totally back off and they don't have to do anything they don't want to. But I think secretly they are excited by it and proud of it. Again, it is kind of fringe because a lot of people don't think Paleo is normal so we kind of just let them decide how much they want to be involved. A lot of times, they're that involved.
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Julie: And then if they kind of really settled into it of the transition from non-Paleo to Paleo, just kind of normal life now.
Michelle: Yeah, I think so because we – what we eat at home is what we eat at home and when they are out and about, they get to make their own decisions. So it's not where it's like, "Oh, you can only eat Paleo all the time." They are just always on edge about it. I think that they understand when I am home, this is what we eat and it makes me feel great.
Halloween is coming up and we are not keeping our kids from trick or treating or anything like that. They can decide, hey, I know candy will probably make me feel a certain way but it also tastes good. So they have to decide what they're going to do.
Christopher: Are they good then? Do they make the right decisions? Well, decisions that you would make.
Michelle: Sometimes they do. I mean, I'm actually surprised by a lot of their decisions, like my younger son has issues with gluten just like I do, whereas my older son doesn't really. But my younger son has been telling his teachers, "No, I can't eat that because that has gluten." So I actually do think that they do make good choices. Of course, there will be times when they decide, "No, I think it's worth it" to eat whatever but I also think they know the consequences and sometimes they choose not to.
Julie: Yeah. I think that's the best that you can ask for really because I think that's the real disconnect that I think as adults that are finding the Paleo diet and recovering from a life of poor food choices, I think the big disconnect that I've been realizing especially working with clients is that people lack that ability to connect the decision that they have made with the consequence. They have just like no ability to think about how this food is making them feel. And so for our kid to have that ability I think is huge.
Michelle: Yeah. I know for myself I never realized how food made me feel. I would just eat it and I just assumed that I had food poisoning all the time.
Julie: Yeah. It's true. I kind of learned that in Food Science that like --
Michelle: Exactly. I was like, oh, it's so easy to get contamination.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: It must be food poisoning and I'm just more sensitive even though no one around me had problems with the food that we just ate. I was like it's a dose-response and I just need a little dose to have it happen. But then just in the last few years I'm like, no, this isn't just something that happened because I am sensitive to this food and when I cut it out I feel normal.
Christopher: And did you get complete resolution of your problems then just from purely diet alone? Because again this is something that's a weird tiny part of the universe where I only speak to people that have still got problems even though they have done all the diet and lifestyle stuff. So did you fix everything just by changing your diet?
Michelle: I think most things. I mean, not just – I wouldn't say it's just the diet.
Christopher: Yes, it's lifestyle too, right?
Michelle: I think prioritizing sleep is huge.
Christopher: Uh-huh.
Michelle: But I think eating right and exercising, I think all of that kind of work together. I used to have GI stuff all the time and I had achy joints and I had all the stuff that just went away when I kind of – I mean, I think initially it was food and then once I started feeling better, once I started eating right then I started looking at other factors that I could tweak.
Christopher: Right.
Michelle: And then, you know. But I also think that you can hack, hack, hack but you also need to enjoy life. And so it's all of those things and managing stress.
Christopher: So you've got quite a wonderful success story with managing the photo period thing, protecting your circadian rhythm. What happens for you in that in shift work?
Michelle: Well, I really noticed though after I quit working nights in July – at first, I thought I had it pretty well dialed in. Even on my website I have this post about surviving the night shift but looking back, there's a reason why I called it "surviving the night shift" and not like "thriving on the night shift" –
Julie: Right.
Michelle: -- because it's really, really hard to go against Mother Nature and to go against your circadian rhythms. One of the things I noticed with myself is my memory is much better now that I've stopped working nights.
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I would work seven ten-hour shifts in a row and then I'd have seven days off. It's a pretty cool schedule but you can never kind of get back to baseline even with those seven days off and so you're just kind of compounding sleep deprivation. I really think my memory suffered.
I was really excited because I did 23andMe to see what – and this is before they just limited it to your ethnic background.
Julie: Yes.
Christopher: Oh, they don't give you any information now, right?
Michelle: Yeah, they don't give you any of the good stuff.
Christopher: Yeah.
Michelle: But I got my results before they did that and it said that I was a lower risk for Alzheimer's which made me really happy because I was like, oh, this memory loss that I have must be due to something else. Hopefully, it's sleep and if I fix that my memory will improve.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: I think it has. So I think you just have to happy and be around people you love and laugh and eat good food and move, and all those things together will make you happier.
Julie: That's awesome.
Christopher: Yeah. It's interesting you should mention that actually, that with the symptoms, sometimes you don't really notice them until they're gone.
Michelle: Yeah.
Christopher: I found that right. It's like when you sat there in a haze of brain fog, you're not really thinking about all the things that you are missing out on right now. That's just not the way it works.
Michelle: Yeah. I mean, I used to just say, oh, it's just – it was. I was like, oh, I'm just sleepy. But I think it's more than that. I think that you're just not able to compound your memories properly. But I do know that a lot of people have to do shift work by necessity. I chose to be a night shift worker because I really like the seven days on, seven off because otherwise my schedule would be day shift, evening shift. And then when I was a young pharmacist, I'd also have to work in night shift.
So that unpredictability I really didn't like and I didn't like that I could never schedule time to see my friends and family so I chose to work nights. But some people don't choose to work nights and they just have to. It's not impossible. You can kind of figure out how to make it work. But it is hard to do long term.
Christopher: Sure. Do you have lots of people coming to you for help other than asking directly for coaching and stuff like that?
Michelle: I have had people request that but I always tell them that's not my gig. My deal is I would just want to help people make healthy, delicious food and that's kind of where I stop. I was like there's tons of other coaches I can refer you too but my thing is just to help you make good food.
Julie: Well, you're really good at that.
Michelle: Thank you.
Julie: We were just talking about it the other day and I think one of the things – because I relate to this as well, that one of the things that makes the way that you cook and your cookbook so approachable and something that I really enjoy about it is because the way that you cook, it tells me – I wasn't surprised to find out that you are a cookbook collector and a reader of cookbooks as a favorite pastime and I think you can really tell that about the way that somebody cooks when they have kind of an ease in the kitchen and an ability to kind of explore because you seem to expose yourself to a lot of different cookbook authors and different chefs and cooks.
Michelle: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm a cookbook collector. I think I'm probably a cookbook hoarder because we have too many for our shelves. But before, I cooked a lot. I used to just read cookbooks just because I love food. But then once I started going Paleo and I was like, "Oh, I probably have to cook more," I just learned a lot from all of my different cookbooks because there is no one right way. Every recipe is kind of a tweak of another recipe. There are better ways to do things and that's when I refer to illustrated books because they test recipes like 70 times. But you can find all sorts of really great ideas and recipes from a lot of the older books and so that's what I kind of like doing. I'm like, oh, I feel like making something Asian. Let me look at these old cookbooks that my mom had just to kind of get ideas of what we can cook.
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Julie: Love that.
Christopher: What are your plans for the Nom Nom brand? I think it's a really cool brand that must be worth something now. What are your plans for it? Are you going to do more books or – what's going on?
Michelle: Potentially, we are doing an update to our iPad app which is free to everybody who already has the iPad app which we are really excited about because it's a really cool and fun redesign. We are potentially thinking of a book. But we don't have anything concrete yet because we want something that is as fun and useful as our first book and so we are trying to figure out what that means. We don't necessarily want to just do another book just to get one out there but we want it to be something that people will want.
Julie: My mom wanted me to tell you that she would like a whole cookbook on Asian-inspired dishes because they can't get takeout anymore so we'd really appreciate it.
Michelle: Yeah. I mean, that's definitely something that I would like to work on because it's really hard to eat out Paleo at an Asian restaurant.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: Everything has soy sauce or you'd go to Japanese food, there's a lot of sugar in everything. So, yeah, I mean that's one of the ideas we're kind of thinking about along with just trying to make cooking easier and more streamlined for people. I think one of the limiting factors is just cooking, like finding the time to cook or just like you come home at six o'clock, what do you make for dinner? You're tired; you don't want to spend all day working on a stew so we are trying to kind of put all those things together.
But I don't know. What's funny is I've been asked this question a lot and we've never had kind of a game plan for anything. We always think of things that might be a fun idea for us to do and then we just do it. So far, it's worked and I think we're going to try to keep doing that.
Julie: Oh, that's a great idea.
Christopher: So we're not going to see a Nom Nom restaurant any time soon then?
Michelle: Oh, no. People have asked that, like, are you kidding?
Julie: I feel the same way, Michelle.
Michelle: And it's so much work. My in-laws ran a Chinese restaurant for decades and they worked so hard and it's a thankless job. I'm like, no, I want someone to cook for me.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: I could go to anybody's Paleo restaurant and pay them good money to make me a delicious meal.
Julie: Yeah. Someone else wanted us to ask if you were going to start a food truck any time soon.
Michelle: No. That's even worse. All of those things, I am happy to support whoever wants to do that.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: But I do not want to do that.
Christopher: Because you don't just oversee it, you know, like just plan the whole thing and then you could sit in your ivory tower.
Michelle: No, no, I – no, no. That's not –
Julie: Not your stick.
Michelle: That's not my thing. I think my thing, like people like, oh, well, you could cater this party. I'm like, no, I want someone to cater my party.
Julie: I know.
Michelle: I'm happy showing people how I cook for my family and my friends but like the max I can cook for is probably like ten people. I have no idea how to scale it to be for a hundred people and that would stress me out. Yeah, it wouldn't work.
Julie: Well, you recently did like a pop-up thing in Portland, right? With one of the –
Michelle: Yes, with Gregory Gourdet.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: That, I didn't do anything.
Julie: Yeah. You just showed up.
Michelle: That's like the perfect event because Gregory is awesome and he's an awesome chef and he's a really great person. We met each other a couple of years ago and every time I go to Portland I see him. He's just a really cool guy.
We were just going to go up to Portland to relax and eat and he had said, "Hey, do you want to do this pop-up brunch at my restaurant?" I'm like, "Sure, if I don't have to do anything." And he's like, "Oh, of course not. I will handle everything and you just show up." I'm like, "Okay, I'll bring some dolls." That was like the coolest event ever.
Julie: That's awesome. How did you learn how to cook or where do you point people to if they want to learn how to cook? Because that's something that -- I work with clients all the time and most of them are pretty adept but there's always somebody that needs some help.
[0:30:10]
Christopher: It can be a deal breaker, right?
Julie: Yeah. If you're not willing to or not able to cook, what is your best –
Michelle: You have to start simple and do some really easy things that will taste great the first time. Because I think a lot of people give up, like they'll try something really complicated and it'll cost a lot of money and will cost a lot in terms of sweat equity but then it comes out like blah and you're like, "I'm never making this again. I wasted all my time and all this money."
And so I think if you start with some easy things that are delicious and you kind of work your way up, that's kind of the best way to start cooking. I mean, something as easy as like my Slow Cooker Kalua Pig which basically is just getting like a really nice pork butt roast, having some salt and a few slices of bacon and throwing it in your slow cooker for a bunch of hours, and you just have this big pile of delicious pork. Those kind of things I think are really great for people to learn or just learning that you can just throw some broccoli with some fat and salt and pepper in your toaster oven. Roast broccoli is delicious.
So I think it's starting with the little things and once they get more confident then they can do bigger productions. But I think it's just a matter of practicing and just – you got to just work at it just like any other skill. I think people have this idea that cooking, like you just do it and it should just work magically. But it's like anything that you need to practice.
Julie: Exactly.
Christopher: Yeah, it's true actually. That's kind of funny. Everybody needs to do it really.
Michelle: Yeah.
Christopher: It is a skill, right? I tried to play tennis once and that didn't go very well either.
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: But that's the thing with cooking is you can't give up. With tennis, you're like, "Oh, forget it. This isn't –" You have to eat, right? And it's gotten so easy for people to outsource. I think for a lot of folks who grew up like I did, it's like you can have fast food, you can have frozen food. You can have all these things that are instantaneous and taste like hyperpalatable and so you just have to ignore those and try cooking simple yet delicious things; or utilizing foods that add umami because those just – like ingredients like fish sauce, tomato paste, coconut aminos, mushrooms, those things add a lot of oomph to your meals without too much work.
Christopher: It's a wonderful contrast. I've just been talking to Stephan Guyenet about food rewards and hyperpalatability and so probably all the things that you look for to make something great is all of the things he's like, no, steamed broccoli.
Michelle: No, no. I know he's against – but I think there's a difference between hyperpalatable food or like processed to be hyperpalatable and then just delicious homemade food, right? I mean, with delicious homemade food, you can only eat so much because it's real food that will satiate you, whereas if you have a bag of Doritos, you'll just go rrr, rrr, rrr, rrr and you'll just fun eat.
Julie: I think there needs to be a little bit of a reward for people to come back to home cooking and come back to learning how to prepare food for themselves because if it's all steamed broccoli, I probably won't want to do it either.
Michelle: And I'm sure you'll be really skinny if all you could eat was steamed broccoli and like steamed chicken but I think food should be enjoyed as well. It should be enjoyed and it should make you feel good afterwards.
Christopher: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's wonderful for you to come on. So when can we expect the revisions to the app then? Have you got a date for that?
Michelle: Well, we're talking to our developers today but I think sometime this winter.
Julie: Awesome.
Michelle: Hopefully. I mean, I don't want to throw – because things can always change. But I think –
Christopher: What could possibly go wrong now?
Julie: Yeah.
Michelle: I think this winter is a good timeline for that. I don't know. I mean, I always have stuff on my blog so people can always look there.
Christopher: Yeah, absolutely, nomnompaleo.com. I'll link to that obviously but I'm sure most people have been there and enjoyed that already.
Julie: Yeah, and we're going to do a giveaway of the Nom Nom Paleo book when the time this airs.
Christopher: Oh, you've got the book signed, didn't you?
[0:35:00]
Julie: Yeah, we're going to do that. We're going to do a giveaway when this airs.
Michelle: Cool.
Julie: Yeah. Awesome.
Christopher: Excellent. Great. Okay. Thanks, Michelle.
Julie: Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle: Thank you.
Julie: Take care.
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